Questions & Answers
Let's address some of the most frequent questions / misconceptions / concerns that have been raised:
"How did the tier list come about?"
Sometime in 2022 Gladius and BPRaiku made a tierlist, consisting of and rating people they play with. Of course, as expected from such buffoons all their friends with whom they were 5-stacking with were put in S tier, and people who joined them only on occassionally, they badmouthed 24/7, ridiculed, criticized for their hero choice, even downright bullied were among the bottom places (including me). That was of course totally nonsensical and at best amusing, but I asked myself if it would be at all possible to create a "tierlist" that would be accurate and impartial and be fair for everyone involved, one that doesn't treat friends specially and isn't too harsh on non-friends, due to personal bias. And that's how the idea started, if a completely impartial one could be created, based on factual data, evidence, things that all observers can agree on. The first iteration felt very biased and it just put people based on winrate together, (still fair, but far from ideal), but in the later part of 2023 I paid/hired/recruited a successful friend of mine who is an expert in web development and AI to help take it to the next level. He knew nothing about Heroes of the Storm, and I did need someone who can be entirely objective and impartial. So we ideated together to make use of stats that are already available to us (HeroesProfile being the main one) and make a fully impartial ranking system. And so was born the current version of the Heroes of the Storm EU playerlist, covering mostly QM/ARAM, but some SL as well, where proof is available.
As of July 10, 2024 it was separated into two different parts - One Objective/Stat-Based (the original idea) and One Subjective(my own experiences with said players)
"Isn't it like a Burn Book?"
I saw the comment somewhere that it was like a burn book. My understanding of a "Burn Book" comes from Mean Girls, supposed to be this shady, private thing shared among a very select group of people, throwing shade and gossiping behind other people's backs. Basically everything I stand against! So, no, it isn't. This was publicly accessed from Day 1 and was never hidden from anyone. Secondly, I didn't do anything to put anyone in there. They did. You did. With your words and actions. With your behaviour ingame. And yes, showcasing your abilities, but first and foremost is "are you a nice person?". You have to remember that this "list" only aims to provide 1 thing - to make YOU, the community, choose your potential best-suited teammates in the future, know what they've done and how they behave. To know in advance if you should even consider playing together. To give them the benefit of the doubt or not. To be extra careful. So no, I did not put you in the tierlist. You did. As far as I'm concerned everyone starts at bottom of A-Tier (Excellent)(maybe I'm a fool to be this positive about people). Going up or down from there is totally up to them.
"I Don't Like or Agree with your Tierlist. Now what?"
Everytime someone has disagreed with the tierlist since I chuckle a bit. Because I am reminded of the following meme:
Of course, this is by no means a scientific, peer-reviewed paper, but you cannot ignore the YEARS of accumulated data. And I mean YEARS. Numbers don't lie, people. Stats don't lie. I've been into servers and database work and I love my statistics, I love my excel sheets and I love stats and numbers and making positive use of them. I've put in a lot of work and research into this, and trust me, I would love to get all the time spent on it back, but if I'm doing something, I want to do it right. I want to do it properly, accurately. The idea is to present the facts and everyone else can do whatever they feel like with that information. So if you disagree with any content here on the objective tierlist, then you simply disagree with your own record/stats and displayed behavior. I'm never going to spend a single second trying to convince flat-earthers otherwise. And if you disagree with the SUBJECTIVE version of the tierlist, well then you simply don't believe in free speech. Let me remind everyone that this entire page is in SERVICE to THE COMMUNITY.
How objective do you believe your criteria and rankings are? How did you ensure that your personal biases did not overly influence the rankings?
Now that's the best question I was asked about this tierlist and I'm happy to answer it. As previously mentioned, I hired an EXPERT in AI who also has a little of semi-pro gaming background and understands terms like KDR, KDA, APM and the likes as well as MMR distribution. But no matter how much objective data we crammed into it (the first version only had signature heroes, now there are all sorts of stats) everyone seems to always go "but it's just your opinion". The idea was to remove my own opinion and be a 3rd party observer on things that everyone can agree on. Things that actually happened. Things that can be verified, regardless whether or not you like or dislike a person in there.
I just want to give one example of things I did to fight my own bias. Before the AI ranking came, I did a social experiment: I placed people that are higher than they should be lower. And I placed two certain individuals that were just mediocre and told them they're S tier. What I found was that both parties were HAPPY about it. Of course, why wouldn't the C- tier noob be shown that they're in S-tier or top of A-tier. And why would the humble, nice person who's way better than what I've just shown them be any mad about it?
Me or a friend of mine appear in the tierlist, but we only troll QM/ARAM so those stats aren't an accurate representation
It is perfectly reasonable to ask this. A significant chunk of players do not play to excel in stats and I have plenty of friends that will int (die for no reason) just for the fun of it. Good news for those people - if your Ranked stats are better than your QM/ARAM stats, especially when Solo Queue, then your QM/ARAM stats won't matter. This is essentially a "get out of jail free card" to more advanced players who seek a more competitive experience such as Scrims, Customs, grinding the StormLeague Ladder, Ravencourt and even tournaments, they often do not care about their stats in Casual modes and that's absolutely fine, they don't have anything to worry about, they're still accurately represented.
Some players play only in 5 stacks so their stats are artificially inflated statistics compared to others. Doesn't this lead to a misleading representation of player statistics?
That's why the vast, vast majority of stats are taken from SOLO games, Storm/Hero League games. Duo(2-stack), and very rarely Trio(3-stack) are used as a measuring stick, as comparison. If a person does not have enough solo and duo games and they only 5 stack, then their skill level will appear as Not Available. Winrate also does not matter for determining Skill, as long as you're above 50%. So you could be a 5-stacker with 97% winrate and still place lower than a solo player with 53% Winrate. If not anything else, the objective tierlist aims to be completely fair.
Have you considered how the tier list might be perceived by your friends?
I apply the scientific method in everything I do. I put feelings to the side and seek the truth. Question everything, demand data and proof. If there's no proof, dismiss and move on to the next thing. I'm not a snowflake and I'm happy to be proven wrong, it means I've learned something. With all the respect towards my friends and anyone that knows me, I believe that truth comes first, or at least before personal feelings. If someone isn't happy about their placement, they should simply look inward. As I mentioned above, as far as I'm concerned, for me everyone starts at the base of A-Tier and move up or down according to their own actions. And let me be clear that this does not at all make me respect my friends less. Quite on the contrary, it has made me value them more. I don't have "ghost" friends and I try to keep in touch with all my friends. Quality > Quantity.
What are you hoping to achieve with the tierlist and what future does it have?
If such a thing existed when I started playing HotS (again) in 2020/2021, then it would've saved me a lot of headache/trouble and lost friends. I had to learn the hard way some hard truths and there was nobody there for me. An example would be being associated with shady people, and people told me they were shady, but I had no proof so I gave them the benefit of the doubt. Because people will find reasons to hate no matter what. With this "project", the only thing I try to achieve is clarity. Transparency. The truth. Future, well I think I'm right at the finish line where little or none at all support/updating will be required.
Did you compare your rankings to any other forms of relationship assessment or feedback?
Yes, but the only available tools are HeroesProfile (And HeroesProfile is far from perfect) and ingame account stats, so I'm extremely limited, although I think we've already done a new "mini MMR", way more accurate than HeroesProfile's or the now defunct Hotslogs. Basically what we do is tell the AI which stats are good and which are bad and we let it run its course.
Don't you feel bad exposing people?
It’s peculiar that nobody questions or has an issue with the numerous positive and glowing comments, which far exceed the negative ones. Yet, the positive feedback rarely receives any praise. It’s always the negative comments that get the attention. A nice, clean building sitting on the corner of the street attracts no one. But once that building catches fire and becomes a disaster, it suddenly becomes interesting to people. No, I don’t expose individuals, doxx them, lie, manipulate, harm, or threaten anyone. I simply present what actually happened; I just show the truth. I summarize and assess events that occurred in a game (or outside of it, before or after), in a Discord server—things that others can vouch for or confirm, things that others have witnessed. I have over 4,000 saved screenshots from the game that can support most of the points I make. My aim is not to "expose" anything, except the crystal-clear truth.
athleticBird, who I consider one of the nicest players, if not the nicest, has received significantly more friend requests from the same people who are unhappy with their own placement and behavior. This highlights how hypocritical and self-centered some individuals can be. When in doubt or fear, people often follow the herd.
How have the relationships with the people in different tiers evolved?
I'll repeat, I'm all about quality over quantity. I believe that everyone can change and improve their ranking and their socials. I believe good communication can solve any problem. We were all dumb at some point, I'm dumb about a great many things now that in the future I'll understand better and that's what makes us human. So yes, I believe there are only two or three people in that entire tierlist that are absolutely beyond reach and do not have any redeemable qualities. Everyone else can impress(or disappoint), but as far as playing with people from different tiers of the Objective tierlist - it doesn't affect me, simply because I still try to be the best, most consistent teammate I can be for my teammates regardless of who I play with.
Do you regret making the Tierlist?
I've regretted it once or twice, mainly because the initial version (before splitting them into objective&subjective), despite still smoothing out the rough edges, was blown completely out of proportion.by ignorant and/or vindictive individuals. No matter what you do to try to please them, they will never be satisfied and will always selfishly seek more for themselves. The intention was always to provide an impartial, fact-based rundown to help recommend the best potential teammates for YOU, the community, since you’re likely to encounter many of these names in your games. It was meant to help you avoid making the same mistakes I did, to steer clear of people I should have avoided but had no proof against, and to improve the gaming experience for decent people trying to enjoy the game. It’s as simple as that.
Are you being too harsh on people you have personal distaste for?
No. The first time players got ranked using AI, I was happy about and open-minded to the stats. A few players I had previously thought were bad were rated higher. Conversely, some that I thought were good were sub-optimal. And that's okay. As far as the individual "social description" - well those things actually happened, whether or not you and I like it. Whether one might think if they're harsh is just petty semantics.
Many people who are placed higher on the lists have told me they were asked, "What did you do to get placed so high?" The answer is always the same: "Nothing!" Because that’s what it takes to rank higher—just don’t be a jerk. Don’t be an ass. Don’t be a troll or griefer. If you can manage that, you’ll be there.
